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Old 07-28-2012, 09:05 PM
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Things I learned from this process.
*New master cylinders are hit or miss in functionality. My first new one I bought did not work, but it was a clearance item from rockauto.com. I ended up spending another $80 plus shipping for the Centric brand one that actually worked.
*The larger the caliper piston is the better the clamping force.
*Caliper deflection affects brake performance more that I thought.
*The smaller the bore of the master cylinder is the better the pressure to the caliper.
*But if the bore of the master cylinder is to small, it may not have enough fluid to fully compress the caliper piston.
*The diameter of the brake rotor also affects the performace of the brakes not only because of rotor area and heat dissipaton, but also a larger diameter rotor gives the brakes greater leverage. Just think of using a 6" long breaker bar instead of a 5.25" rachet to get a bolt loose. A longer bar will have a easier time getting the bolt loose. A 10.5" rotor has a 5.25" (half the rotor diameter) of "leverage". A 12" rotor has 6" of "leverage". Larger is better.
*They make brake pad designed for drag racers. They work better when cold and are for vehicles that do not use their brakes on a daily basis.
*Wilwood makes nice metric calipers.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:04 PM
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Just recieved my Wilwood 2.75" big bore calipers in today. These are very nice calipers, just like the Wilwood 2 inch metric calipers. The piston diameter measures 2.704 inches. On the underside of the caliper, there are ridges that bridge the piston side (inside) of the caliper to the wheel side (outside) of the caliper. These ridges are not present on any of the other calipers. These ridges should cut down of caliper deflection. The weight of each of the 2.75" calipers is 4 lbs 8.6 ounces with out the bleeder screw. I hope the 7/8" bore g-body manual brake master cylinder can handle the increase in volume these calipers may require.




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Old 08-07-2012, 09:04 PM
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Caliper Specs

Caliper............................Part Number........Advertised Bore Size.......Actual Piston Size.....Weight
Wilwood 2" Bore Caliper........PN 120-9333...................2.00"...................... ....1.981"................4lb 1.6oz
US Brake / AFCO Caliper.......PN 7241-9004..................2.50"....................... ...2.376"................6lb 4.7oz
CCP Big Bore Caliper............PN CP412526...................2.75".................. .........2.565"................6lb 11.2oz
Wilwood 2.75" Bore Caliper....PN 120-8926...................2.75"...................... .....2.704"................4lb 8.6oz
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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This week I put on the Wilwood big bore calipers. I got them bled and immediately had less pedal pressure when using the 7/8” G-Body manual brake master cylinder. The pedal almost went to the floor. I assume it is from the increased piston diameter over the Speedwaymotors.com “Big Bore” calipers (2.704” Wilwood v 2.565” Speedwaymotors/CCP) that I replaced. When driving with the Wilwood big bore calipers, I could pump the pedal 3 or 4 times and get the pressure I needed and would lock up the right rear tire and stop the car just like the other calipers. I suspect now I will need a 24mm bore G-body master cylinder (from a power, vacuum boosted G-body) and EE rated front pads to replace the FF rated front pads I have on the front now. The EE rated front pads have better “bite” when the rotor is colder. FF rated front pads have better “bite” when the rotor heats up. Since this is a street driven car, the EE rated pads should be a better choice and will match the rear EE rated shoes that are already on the car.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:57 AM
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Sounds like you still have air in the system.. and are you using a proportioning valve ?? if not,,you need it plumed into the rear lines.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:09 PM
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Original Prop Valve and brake hard lines are still in the car. The only thing I changed out, from the last test, was the front calipers from the Speedwaymotors "big bore" caliper to the Wilwood 2.75" big bore calipers. The speedway calipers gave me good pressure with the 7/8" bore master, but I either had too much caliper flex or the pads needed more heat to stop with the FF rating and the car was not stopping as good as I would like. With the experience I have had with the new calipers, I think a need a “colder” pad with an EE rating and caliper flex had less to do with it. I changed out the front calipers because they were recalled from speedwaymotors. They sent me replacement CCP branded “big bore” calipers, but I wanted to try the Wilwood calipers first because they look to be engineered better and have a bigger piston area.

I bled the front calipers with the master cylinder cap off using the two person method (hold brake pedal at bottom of stroke, untighten the bleeder screw on caliper, watch for bubbles in the transparent line, retighten bleeder screw, release brake pedal, repeat process). I bled until I didn’t get any bubbles coming through the transparent hose I used to watch for bubbles. I may need to try the two person method with the master cylinder cap on to build more pressure. I will do this first before I change out the master cylinder to a 24mm rebuilt unit I have already bought.
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:44 PM
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4 wheel disc are not going to work with the stock prop/distribution block,,,you will need to remove it or get one for disc/disc set up and or get a inline prop valve for the rear brakes.. get this dist. block http://www.mpbrakes.com/products/pro...product_id=613 or get the wilwood adjustable prop valve...
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:08 PM
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X2!
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  #39  
Old 08-27-2012, 07:21 PM
malibudave malibudave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowukno View Post
4 wheel disc are not going to work with the stock prop/distribution block,,,you will need to remove it or get one for disc/disc set up and or get a inline prop valve for the rear brakes.. get this dist. block http://www.mpbrakes.com/products/pro...product_id=613 or get the wilwood adjustable prop valve...
I don't have disc/disc. I have disc/drum.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:08 PM
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Oh you have drum brakes in the rear?? then the only thing i can think of is air is stil trapped in your system
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:09 PM
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also you need larger bore MC for disc drum set up
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  #42  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:24 PM
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I am done testing the manual brake setup with a stock, aluminum, rebuilt, 24mm bore, 1980 El Camino master cylinder. With only this change, I got back the brake fluid pressure that I lost when I upgraded to the Wilwood 2.75” metric calipers using the 7/8” bore master cylinder. I bench bleed the master cylinder installed it in place of the 7/8” bore master cylinder, bled the line at the master cylinder, and then bled the car at all four wheels.

On the test drive, using the 24mm master, I did a few hard stops from about 30 mph. I was rewarded with both rear wheels locking up, but the front braking system felt as if it still wasn’t grabbing. After the testing, I jacked the front of the car and removed the wheels and I unbolted the calipers so I can take a look at the pads. I suppose during my very first manual brake test, I did not bed the brakes in properly and I glazed the brake pads over. I do not know why I did not notice this when I put on the Wilwood calipers other than not recognizing what glazed pads look like. The glazing most likely happened because I had a large master cylinder and small calipers on my first manual brake test and, at the time, I wasn’t getting enough pressure to the pads to do accomplish correct bedding. The moral of the story is to bed your pads properly.

Good news is that I found out what the issue is with the front brakes not grabbing. Bad news is that I didn’t deglaze my pads and retest. I didn’t deglaze the pads I originally used because went ahead and upgraded to a Wilwood Polymatrix A brake pad.

I went to the Wilwood PolymatrixA pad because of its good, cold clamping properties and, before I realized about the glazing pads, I had thought this would help with front brakes. **As a warning from Wilwood to any one using these pads, Wilwood considers these race pads**. These are aggressive pads and will most likely wear the front rotors prematurely and are intended for race use only. These pads have almost twice the friction coefficient as a “stock” type pad. I am using this aggressive pad because the front rotors are small, the brake pads are small, the front calipers are a floating design, and the car is now has manual brakes. These pads are also a wallet buster at $150 a set.

The braking test with these pads where a noticeable night a day difference. I felt very comfortable and confident while driving and stopping. On hard stops, the nose of the car would “dive” down and the rear wheels still locked up. Only time will tell if these front pads are good for everyday use with this manual brake setup.

If your car is a daily driver and not a drag car, you most likely do not need to change out to larger wheel cylinders on the rear drum brakes like I did. The original stock 3/4” bore wheel cylinders versus the larger 7/8” bore wheel cylinders should reduce rear lock up on hard braking.

For a drag racer with large, wide, sticky tires on the back, the larger 7/8” bore wheel cylinder may be better to keep the rear tires from spinning when your holding the car on the line with just the brakes. An aggressive front pad may also be needed to hold the car on the line (contact one of the major brake pad manufactures for suggestions).

From my experience, to do a manual brake system on a g-body or s-10, some or all of the brake components will have to be replaced. You cannot just remove the vacuum booster and bolt the master cylinder to the firewall and expect your braking to function well. It is a system approach.

Do you need an oversized caliper? In my opinion, no you do not.

Do you need to change out the front calipers? In my opinion, yes you do. Why? Because the stock calipers may or may not be a LOW DRAG design which requires a step bore master cylinder. How do you know that you have LOW DRAG calipers? You actually cannot physically tell, so its best to buy aftermarket calipers to cut down on variables that may cause trouble with your braking system.

Do I recommend rebuilt front calipers from the auto parts store? No. See above.

Do you need to change out the master cylinder? In my opinion, most likely you will need to. Why? It depends on what you are starting with. If you have a GM g-body vehicle that was built from 1978 to 1980, you have a strait bore, 24mm bore master cylinder from the factory and you can just upgrade to Wilwood 2.75” bore calipers if you master cylinder is in good working order. If you have a vehicle built from 1981 through 2003 you most likely have a step bore master cylinder. These master cylinders are too large for almost all manual brake conversions on a g-body or s-10. Now a choice has to be made. How much money do you want to spend on aftermarket front calipers? Cheapest ones that I have found are around $45 each with a stock size bore from U.S. Brakes. You will then need a 7/8” bore master cylinder to match to these front calipers. For a g-body car you can go with a new or rebuilt, stock replacement from a 1978 to 1980 g-body manual brake master cylinder. For an S-10, the only option I have found that readily bolts to the firewall and to the brake lines is a Wilwood 7/8” bore master cylinder. If upgrading to the Wilwood 2.75” bore calipers, you will need a 24mm master cylinder. The g-body options are a new or built stock power brake unit from a 1978 to 1980 g-body car. New ones will be cast iron. Most rebuilt ones will be cast iron. For some reason, the 1980 model years came in aluminum and these can be bought rebuilt (like I have installed in the latest test). For a s-10, you can use a stock replacement manual brake master cylinder from a 1982 to 1992 s-10 truck with manual brakes. These are step bore master cylinders with a primary bore of 1-1/4” and a secondary bore of 24mm. I do not recommend these master cylinders because they are hard to bleed and have a bypass valve that can fail. The other options are a 24mm Wilwood master cylinder and a 1990s 24mm Dodge Dakota master cylinder. Only issue with the Dakota master is the rear brake port is 9/16-20 instead of 9/16-18. I have found no adapter for this conversion yet.

Do I recommend step bore master cylinders? No, because they are generally too large for a stock size front caliper, they are hard to bleed, and they have a bypass valve that may fail. These three issues can be remedied by using a correct size strait bore master cylinder. A 7/8” bore master cylinder for stock bore, aftermarket calipers and 24mm bore master cylinder for a Wilwood 2.75” bore calipers.

Do I recommend other oversized front calipers other than the Wilwood 2.75” front calipers? No, because their piston size in these oversized calipers are not much larger than stock. The Wilwood caliper, visually, looks to be engineered better.

Do I recommend stock size calipers? U.S. Brake is the only caliper, of the aftermarket cast iron replacements I know, that is not a low drag caliper. There may be other aftermarket, “metric” calipers, but I cannot confirm if they are low drag or not. The U.S. Brake calipers are based on a stock casting. The other alternative is a stock, replacement aluminum, “metric” caliper from Wilwood. I have not used or viewed one of these calipers, but from engineering of the 2.75” bore and 2.00” bore calipers I have viewed, I suspect they should be just as well engineered and lighter.

Do I recommend larger wheel cylinders? If the car is street driven, most likely no. If drag raced, most likely yes to keep the rear tires from spinning when doing a brake stand

Do I recommend braided stainless steel flex lines? Yes, for the reduced ballooning and better pedal feel, but is not necessary.
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  #43  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:15 PM
malibudave malibudave is offline
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Here is a list of strait bore master cylinders that will bolt up to a G-body’s angled firewall when using a flat, manual brake adapter plate. This is a list from smallest to largest.

21mm (0.826”) bore 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Requires adapters to mate master cylinder outlet to stock lines. The adapter Part number is MC-SF at http://www.classicperform.com.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Hard to find.
• Light in weight.
• Advertised as 21mm, but may be delivered in 7/8” or 24mm bores. Measure bore size before you buy. Rebuilt/Used ones will have a “1” cast into the front of the aluminium body under the reservoir.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.

7/8” (0.875”) bore 1978-1980 GM G-body manual brake master cylinders.
• Can buy new or used. Rebuilt are fairly cheap. New are fairly expensive.
• Reservoir too small for rear disc brakes. The reservoir from 1979 Buick Riviera with four wheel disc brakes can be retrofitted to this master cylinder.
• Advertised as manual brake units, but may be delivered as a 24mm, vacuum power boosted unit. Measure bore size before you buy.
• Bolt in.
• Cast iron body – new, used, or rebuilt. (no aluminium)

7/8” (0.875”) bore 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Requires adapters to mate master cylinder outlet to stock lines. The adapter Part number is MC-SF at http://www.classicperform.com.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Easier to find.
• Light in weight.
• Advertised as 7/8”, but may be delivered in a 24mm bore. Measure bore size before you buy.
• Rebuilt/Used ones will have an “8” cast into the front of the aluminium body under the reservoir.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.

24mm (0.944”) bore 1978-1980 GM G-body power brake master cylinders.
• Can buy new or used. Used are fairly cheap. New are fairly expensive.
• Reservoir too small for rear disc brakes. The reservoir from 1979 Buick Riviera with four wheel disc brakes can be retrofitted to this master cylinder.
• Bolt in.
• Come in cast iron and aluminium. 1978-1979 are cast iron. 1980 is aluminium (some models i.e. El Camino).
• New master cylinders will most likely be cast iron regardless of year.
• Rebuilt units come in cast iron and aluminium (1980 – some models).

24mm (0.944”) bore 1993 Dodge Shadow master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Requires adapters to mate master cylinder outlet to stock lines. The adapter Part number is MC-SF at http://www.classicperform.com.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Easiest to find.
• Light in weight.
• Advertised as 24mm, but may be delivered in a 7/8” bore. Measure bore size before you buy.
• Rebuilt/Used ones will have a “4” cast into the front of the aluminium body under the reservoir.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.

24mm (0.944”) bore 1993 Dodge Dakota master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Rear brake line outlet is 9/16-20 versus GM rear brake line fitting of 9/16-18. The fitting for GM brake line may be used to “rethread” the master cylinder’s outlet.
• Front brake lines bolt up.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.
• Reservoir not angled like above Dodge and GM master cylinders.

1.0” bore 1979 Buick Riviera with 4 Wheel Disc Brakes.
• Can buy new or used. Used are fairly cheap. New are fairly expensive.
• Reservoir is made for rear disc brakes.
• Bolt in.
• Come in cast iron and aluminium.
• New master cylinders will most likely be cast iron.
• Rebuilt units usually come in aluminium.

1 1/32” (1.03”) bore 1985 Dodge Diplomat master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Rear brake line outlet is 9/16-20 versus GM rear brake line fitting of 9/16-18. Fitting for GM brake line may be used to “rethread” the master cylinder’s outlet.
• Front brake lines bolt up.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.
• Reservoir not angled like above Dodge and GM master cylinders.

1 1/8” (1.125”) bore 1985 Dodge Ram master cylinder (other years and models may work)
• Rear brake line outlet is 9/16-20 versus GM rear brake line fitting of 9/16-18. Fitting for GM brake line may be used to “rethread” the master cylinder’s outlet.
• Front brake lines bolt up.
• Mounting holes spaced 3.25” versus GM master cylinder’s 3.375”.
• Can buy new or used. New ones are fairly cheap to purchase.
• Aluminium body – new, used, or rebuilt.
• Large reservoir can hold enough fluid for rear disc brakes.
• Reservoir not angled like above Dodge and GM master cylinders.
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Last edited by malibudave; 06-22-2013 at 06:13 PM.
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  #44  
Old 06-22-2013, 07:40 AM
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Good stuff Dave! Thanks
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:07 AM
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